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Alas, this only makes me miss Topix more. And what exactly are “Disqus’ moderation tools”? As for Facebook…not an acceptable option for me.nnTrite by true: If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

The fact that “disqus” has a “global” issue is disconcerting!nfacebook is also “global”…nCan’t we be just local???nI fear this “one world order” transition…nWe are nearing “one world control” every day the Earth spins!!!

Thanks for the comment and thanks for being a regular commenter on Sentinel stories. With apologies to the Topix fans, we found the commenting had become too mean spirited and we really didn’t have the tools, or staff, to manage it. nnWith Disqus you do have to register, and we have a few more options in moderation. We can require that comments are pre-approved on sensitive stories (usually involving victims of crimes or accidents). We are able to ban users by e-mail address, username or IP address if users are breaking terms of service rules. And, we’re also able to communicate directly with commenters who may have a lot to add to a story. nnStill – many apologies for the glitches. – Tom

Seriously? mean spirited? sure some posts may be passionate and ‘racist’, ALL races are guilty of that, but you are saying we cant see all those ‘honest’ comments?. The bogs are as honest as it gets, I may be offended, you may be offended, but its honesty and in my opinion many comments speaks for many people and it helps broaden everyones views. Do you think your so smart to sensor what people can handle? I can assure you regular people can handle the nasty comment better than you think they can, are you that pompos?

I’m glad you’re looking for a replacement for Topix — the comments w/ that were ridiculous. I’m a Disqus fan personally, but I can understand how technical issues make it a non-starter. Agree with others that Facebook is a non-starter.

I like the format of Disqus. The old topix had the little icons that could be hit and nobody knew who did it. For me, if you disagree tell me, don’t hit some button and hide behind it, tell me…My 2 cents

Tom, was it too mean spirited, or was it just that people are fed up and telling how they feel. Your paper reports one crime after another, and yet noticing the trend of the typical profile of a suspect or discussing the problems that we deal with every day in this town is deemed “mean spirited”. Who is the sentinel to decide what is mean, and what is simply just a citizen voicing there opinion. My yahoo login was completely banned, without any inappropriate comments without any reason given why. Ridiculous.

how about changing it back to topix.. it worked, and it was a better system

I like the anonimity available for commenting. Certainly don’t want my every move tracked by my facebook account!

Also, why are you censoring? free speech is the best part of commenting. much more interesting to read the comments than the articles sometimes.

Well, I’d like to congratulate the Sentinel on this timely failure of their commenting protocol. It was entertaining to watch Robert’s face turn redder than an explosion in a tomato cannery when he realized that his op-ed was essentially going to be ignored, because no one could post a comment nnOn the other hand, knowing that I can overlay my comments over his article, simply by using Internet Explorer, makes me want to throw my MacBook at the head of the nearest transient asking people for bus fare (aka “my next fix”) on Pacific Avenue, and go give Bill Gates and Company some custom.

I recall running into this scrollbar issue recently but was able to circumvent it by writing in notepad and pasting to the comment box afterward. (I i think it was on Google Maps rather than here, now that I recall, but the issue was the same.)nnI’ve rarely commented on Sentinel articles in the past, but if a Facebook profile will be a requirement then it’ll be a no-go. I’m not a user of Facebook and don’t plan to for the forseeable future, because 1: I presently don’t have a use for social networking over the internet, and 2: most things I add to the public internet I do under at least some cover of anonymity as a security measure, which the non-anonymity policy of Facebook’s would directly violate. (If I were to use Facebook in the future, it would be strictly as a private channel of communication.)

Topix atleast it worked. Several inappropriate comments,but this is the U.S.

“paranoia strikes deep..”

“As does reality…”

Disqus is an inferior commenting system for a number of reasons. nnThere is no quote feature – this makes it difficult to discuss back and forth.nnThere is no tracking feature – no forum to visit to see comments made in response to one’s own. This also makes it difficult to discuss back and forth.nnI haven’t noticed that the Disqus comments are any better in quality. In fact, given the heavy moderation that has been complained about, the Sentinel powers that be prefer a watered down, difficult to follow comment thread to a robust exercise of the First Amendment.nnI never understood why certain stories even allowed comments on Topix – some never did from the moment of posting (which seemed the prudent course), while others were free-for-alls with comments later taken down.nnApparently Disqus and the Sentinel do not get along because of how the Sentinel is formatted. The problems will only continue or grow worse, unless the Sentinel radically alters their online site.nnFrom this customer’s perspective (I have yet to cancel my subscription as threatened, although it’s more from ennui than anything else) Disqus is an inferior-in-every-way system to Topix.nnPlease bring back Topix.

I agree wholeheartedly that some comments were terribly inappropriate. This was especially true for some crime stories, as the Sentinel points out. “Truth” and “free speech” are one thing, but it was gut wrenching (at least for me) to read about a murder, for example, and then to read horribly insensitive comments afterward. I used to wonder how it felt for the victims’ families and friends if it upset me that much. I recall a woman who had been shot dead by an ex-boyfriend, and then reading comments about how she must not have made his breakfast on time. Or a elderly man who was killed in a traffic accident, and people commenting about how it was just one more old person off the roads. Other stories may attract what I consider to be mean-spirited rather than constructive comments, but the tragic stories sometimes brought out the worst in some readers. That said, as a Sentinel contributor, I’d sometimes see comments that disagreed with my column. Some of them were over the edge, but I have no argument with that. Everyone has an opinion, and it’s up to them to be responsible for how they phrase it. But the crime story comments too often went beyond the bounds of sensitivity.

I doubt comment section is what someone would read if their loved one was killed, and if they ever read public comments before, they would know not too. Sometimes you have to protect yourself, you cannot expect the world to do it for you.n

Since this appears to be the only site available today for reader comments, I’d like to say that today’s Sentinel editorial “Rail purchase deserves green light” (a piece boosting the use of taxpayer funds by the local government to purchase a white elephant described as “the invaluable 32 miles of track” , and against overwhelming community opposition) looks like another exercise in performing mouth-to-mouth on a mummy.nnAnd when will something run in the Sentinel about Assemblyman Luis Alejo blowing nearly $40,000 on a taxpayer-purchased Ford Escape hybrid SUV (31 MPG highway) when there were other vehicle options providing better mileage at half the price? That story broke in the LA Times days ago and appeared in newspapers across the state, including his hometown Watsonville publication yesterday. Why not here?

I agree with Donna about the innapproriate commnets. It was getting to be too much.nnSecondly, I would like to ask that you please consider not using Facebook as your commenting system. Although I am a minority on this issue, I will never have a Facebook account for many reasons. Although most people do, there are many like myself who disdain that site. Using something akin to “Discuss” works because your not forcing people to join anything more than a commenting system, and not a global social networking community people may not want to be a member of simply to post comments at their local paper. n

While I respect your opinion on most things, Xanthippe, this is not a “first amendment” issue. The Sentinel is not the government. They, as a private business, have every free market right to allow the comments to be posted as they see fit. With Topix, I remember seeing things like people talking junk about girls as young as 13. Totally unacceptable.

But people with loved ones who have died have visited the comment section, and why shouldn’t they? They often find wildly inappropriate comments. If they happen to be Hispanic, the regulars come out in droves ranting very racist comments. nnThey have to draw the line somewhere. I am generally against censorship, but when I read comments about people who have died calling them ” Drug Addicts who deserved it”, or “Spics” or bringing up such solutions to the homeless issue as “lining the bums up to be shot” its too much. Racism and calling for violence should not be tolerated by a local paper.

Your anger issues are well known by your employees and the homeless community, They got the message and can’t afford your over priced coffee anyway. I hope you are seeking help. I have seen you be very compassionate and I have also seen you loose your mind over something trivial and become violent. I truly hope you can find some balance someday. Not every panhandler is an addict and addicts are human beings. We need better mental health. nn

No one is forcing you to read the comments. If you don’t like or agree with what someone else has to say just move on.

Ahh. Yes there is a tracking system and a good one and a way to see replies. Click on your avatar. Click on Activity. You can go to any comment thread, and even have replies emailed to you. I found that the first day.

Oh yeah, I can also click on your avatar, see every post you have made, and choose to follow you, or not. Topix never came close to this. What you do not like is being moderated. That’s fine. But your wrong about the what Disqus can and cannot do. Check it out the Activity button is t the right of your profile…

It’s “pompous” and I wholeheartedly agree! The way some of the feel-good articles are written, someone has to inject a little reality and perspective.

I disagree with you!

I also noticed that the story on the Woodview project in SV didn’t mention the death threats against a councilman opposed to the project. A good reason why the forums are such a valuable resource. Too bad they get abused by the idiots.

Uh Oh, careful now. Your comments are sure to be deemed “mean-spirited” and possibly racist. You can’t point out that the emperor isn’t wearing any clothes on this forum anymore.

Please bring back Topix…it was a wonderful forum that created a real sense of community….people who did not like some of the “insensitive” comments had the option of not going online and reading them…just like TV, radio, movies or any other media: you don’t have to subject yourself to inappropriate content…all you have to do is turn it off and walk away.

I understand that the Sentinel is a private company and that their commenting system is not a First Amendment issue. I merely referred to the conversation as an exercise of First Amendment rights (which it most certainly is).nnI also recall seeing many inappropriate comments on Topix – I flagged the ones I thought were abusive and ta-da! most were removed in a timely fashion.nnI have seen inappropriate comments on Disqus as well. I have seen comments that were removed from Disqus as well, some that made no sense to me as to why they were removed (this also happened with Topix but not as much). The Sentinel moderators have a heavy hand, which reflects the community (I notice quite a few commenters claim to like that) in that unpopular opinions are oftentimes removed rather than disputed or debated. This is so typical of Santa Cruz discourse, though, isn’t it?nnIf the Sentinel wants to foster an online community, then the Sentinel ought to commit more resources toward that. Disqus is an inferior system in almost every way, in terms of community. It also doesn’t work due to the way the Sentinel works. nnPerhaps one solution would be for the Sentinel to go back to Topix and invest in more moderators.nnNow, perhaps Topix is not the answer, but in my opinion Topix did a far better job with community than Disqus. There are other commenting systems out there. (IntenseDebate is a good one, but again, it may not work with the Sentinel’s website). nnI don’t think people are as gung-ho about using social media when it comes to expressing opinions as media types want them to be. This is why a forum is a better solution. A community is actually created, rather than attempting to tack on to other communities that people create for other reasons. Using Facebook for politics or religion is fail. Nobody much enjoys that.

I do not like the mean or racist comments, but that is part of like and free speech and this type of local forum is one of the best ways to really know the feelings and types of people who are in our community. Moderation is merely a pc way to say Censorship and, but for swearing type words, should not be happening. Are you telling me the Sentinel no longer believes in Free Speech? p.s., this box has gone dead multiple times and changed formatting while trying to type this reply.

Sentinel: Do not assume that the entire world uses Facebook, otherwise known as The Evil Datamining Machine. As was noted in the NY Times recently, Zuckerberg does not want to take Facebook public because that would mean government and public scrutiny. Take a minute to think about that.nnFacebook…just say no.

You are not alone. Facebook is Pandora’s Box.

Donna, those inappropriate comments are just part of the Internet world, and most people who spend time on forums learn to block them out of their field of vision. I don’t know how Topix was moderated (beyond the auto-censor), and how much human involvement there was there, but the most offensive comments did drop off eventually. I found the thrust and parry interesting, for the most part. Sometimes people would offer information that contradicted (ahem..corrected) or expanded upon what was reported in the article. I have found out more useful information about local crime from the comments than I have from Sentinel articles. Topix was better for getting a conversation going, even if the conversation often went downhill.nnAnd I disagree with you about Krusteze — can’t stand the stuff. But we all have our own opinions.

Please bring back Topix. If you do, I will subscribe to the Sentinel’s online edition for a year in advance. I also have a couple of decades of experience moderating online forums and I would volunteer to help.nnMost of the hits this site ever got from me were due to following Topix discussions. As others have posted, often some of the most interesting and important parts of a news story have been discussions on Topix. The next natural disaster we have up here in the mountains will be ten times scarier without being able to get a true picture of what is going on from discussion in article comments.nnI know moderating a forum is an expense and a hassle. But I will NEVER subscribe to a paper newspaper again. No need to go out and get it, no need to tote it to the recycling bin, no ink on my hands. Not when I can read the news online. The business model is changing, and newspaper readers expect certain things, like a good commenting system. But heck, you don’t need to pay a delivery kid to serve me, or a printer, or someone go maintain a press to get me my news anymore. But you do need forum moderators. Times are changing.nnLook at how many old regulars came out of the woodwork here! I miss the community.nnBtw ditto the Facebook sentiments posted by others here … I don’t do Facebook, or any service that doesn’t respect privacy.

Picture another “disagree” icon here. I liked the icon system. Sometimes I wanted to show support for a post but didn’t want to just make another “me too” post. Sometimes I just had time for icon hitting, not commenting. And other times, pressing that “crazy” button offered as much satisfaction as drawing a mustache on a picture … Sometimes I got the mustache drawn on me! Good times.

I fully agree with you! Tom Moore moderates out any comment that is contrary to his or his politico affiliates. I am a 3rd generation Santa Cruz born taxpayer and have been deleted for making true comments regarding many issues where the actions of the UCSC driven city council leaders were caught in lies and/or deceptions.

Topix was fine. Why not work with them to require login like disqus?nnI do NOT want to have Facebook as the commenting system!!! Facebook is for my personal and family sharing…..NOT for public sharing!

My 2009 Mazda 6 with 4 cylinder engine gets 25 city/30 highway and only cost $17,900 new! How does the state justify spending $40,000!!???

Disqus just figured out they had a problem with Firefox??? one of the most used browsers in the world?? what a joke!

Topix was a vibrant community forum. Certainly there were unacceptable comments, they were deleted. Certainly people were uncivil, others had the right to either ignore them or take them to task. nnPlease bring back Topix

If the readers liked topix…then restore topix. After all, its the readers comments.

Its an opinion, and in most all cases is balanced by other- different opinions. All the opinions broaden peoples view and help them see others have others opinions and maybe learn something, even from nasty posts. I see just as many ‘latinos’ or spic’s as you called them making racial comments, get over it. Just about everyone out there has racial preferrences, its normal, but the liberal, political correct turned it into a bad word. I know people arent boxes but sometimes you have to generalize.n

Maybe the sentinal should not print any crime related or bad stories at all, then everyone would think everything is great and everyone is perfectly content with the condition of the city.

Don’t use Facebook as the Sentinels commenting system. Facebook is for friends and family, not public sharing. Originally I was against using Disqus, but it did seem to keep the rambling, off-topic mumblings of a certain person in check. Fix it or bring back Topix – using Facebook is a real bad choice.

I think its the Senile not Disqus and Firefox as I use Disqus for other sites, like opensecrets.org with Firefox and have never had an issue.

Thanks for all the comments. Great discussion – I wish we had an easy answer. I also wish we had comments up and working. We’re still working on the issue for IE users on Wednesday.nnA couple answers to questions and suggestions posed here:n1) Criticism of the Sentinel is welcome. Unless we’re talking about certain well-known words, I don’t think we’ve ever taken down a comment because it was critical of the Sentinel. Some criticism does hurt, but it’s usually good for us. n2) We’re not going back to Topix.n3) Disqus has been great about helping us, but they’re not experts on our content management system and how it’s built. Since we’re a little bit out on our own with Disqus as a commenting option, we’re understandably not getting a ton of MediaNews tech support. n4) There’s been a lot of talk about a new content management system for http://www.santacruzsentinel.com that includes a comments system built in, but that’s a little ways off, still. n5) We like Disqus, but may resort to Facebook commenting that doesn’t break our page until we get the new CMS, or iron out glitches in Disqus.n6) The issue with Firefox was pretty minor, and has been fixed.n7) Apologies, again, for the glitches and delay. nnThanks for all the feedback and for your patience.n- Tom

Not going back to topix because…

Political correctness, censorship and control of the population are the bane of free expression and a free society. The agenda of the progressive mainstream leftist media is to control the voice of those who object to and who expose the propaganda and lies of both the government and enablers the biased media. Whether your political leanings are right or left, honest open discussion and arguments are what made this country the envy of the world. MediaNews Group is a left wing biased news corporation owning the Sentinel, San Jose Mercury News, and a number of large Southern California newspapers all of which have a demonstrated bias and a demonstrated propensity to push the leftist and Obama agenda!

I’m going to bust if I can’t comment on the HUD funding story! MATCH got $361k, and it serves only 33 people! Argh!

Never mind… just keep your eyes on the other hand.

Vote NO for FACEBOOK!

… we’re just not, and that’s final!

People have rightly been concerned about Facebook privacy issues. Many people use all the tools available to retain what privacy they can on that site. Requiring its use to comment is unacceptable for many people. I think it’s fine to require consistent identities but not real names. Topix’s ad hoc identification system simply invited abuses and was highly unusual. But there are other web identification options not connected to people’s private lives, as Facebook is, that should be available to use instead of that site.

Why no return to Topix? Because the Sentinel received a petition calling for it to put an end to Topix. The petition only contained six names, but they were Zach Friend, Fred Keeley, Luis Alejo, John Laird and a couple of Coonerty’s.

….the Sentinel can’t “monitor” the comments. nnI think everyone who is busting at the gut to comment on stories should do so here – or maybe the Sentinel could set up a a common area for comments. People can comment and the Sentinel can monitor – win win.

Oh, TOPIX was just too mean-spirited (there was a disagreement over what should be censored, and most likely that bridge has been burned) so more control is being sought. After all, the news media is liberal and does not tolerate well those who would poke fun at or ridicule their many gaffs or Orwellian-like schemes.nOh well, cest la vie.

I like the comment board for sf chronicle I am a registered commentator on there and never have problems commenting.nThis is the second time this board has been down for days why not pull the plug?

I like the comment board for sf chronicle I am a registered commentator on there and never have problems commenting.nThis is the second time this board has been down for days why not pull the plug?nI say no to face book I wont use itn

I guess those 6 names weigh more heavily than the dozens in favor of Topix. They are, after all, the powers that be in this community.nnRemember when journalists considered themselves champions of the people and of truth rather than manipulated by the powerful? (I think there were at least 5 minutes when that happened at some time – or maybe it disappears in J-school).

All in favor of bringing back topix, say YAY!n But seriously, even with the off-the-wall comments on topix and the weird things people said, I liked it. The comments were an excellent score for knowing how my fellow Santa Cruzans really felt. nI’m SO bored with the Sentinel now and spend most of my time at the SF Chronicle. They still get to say what they think (within reason) and delight and entertain me to no end. nI miss you, Santa Cruz topix. Come back.

Oh, the Topix comments hogs want their forum back! They call it vibrant, but for me it was mostly a venue for mean spirited repeat offenders to vent. I applaud the Sentinel for trying to have a real forum and hope they can work it out. I’m a Firefox user and haven’t noticed a problem on other sites that use Disqus, but, hey, I’m not technie. Good luck Sentinel is taking back this forum from the bullies.

Same here. Love reading and commenting on the SF Chronicle. This new comment board the Sentinel has now reminds me of old ladies sitting around drinking tea. To get things whipped up, one of the ladies brings up her bunions or gout. How….exciting.

“I’m SO bored with the Sentinel now”nnYou hit the nail on the head.nAnd this is the nail on the coffin for me.nTopix fostered a palpable sense of community. Disgus tempered by heavy handed monitoring does anything but.nnBite the hand that feeds you? You will go hungry Sentinel.n

All I can say is…….Poor, Poor, Robert Norse. He finally gets a commentary and no one can comment. Amazing timing. LOL!

Hey, Carl…..Phffffft!

I am not a Facebook user and its likely I will never be one. I liked Topix, it wasn’t perfect but it worked! I have had nothing but problems with Disqus on more than one newspaper site, the Sentinel being the worst for problems rendering it useless.

I liked those icons, they were fun. I guess they don’t want Topix due to lack of control or maybe tracking…fact is the majority of regular commenters were happy with Topix. Tom, you have editorial control of the paper…isn’t that enough? I will be out with facebook.

Families and friends DO read those comments, as do the rest of us. Most comments are appropriately empathetic. But there are the few who have no sense of self-censorship. Go to the Yahoo! News board for some excellent examples. Freedom of speech is a right. But along with rights go responsibilities. Moderating tasteless comments is not censorship when the Sentinel is a business. The founders of the US were talking about government censorship. If freedom of speech meant that we were allowed to say anything at any time and in any place, then someone could stand in front of your home every day with a bullhorn making racist or sexual comments about your family.

But how do you know that you’re reading a tasteless comment about your dead parent or child until after you’ve read it? These hateful things are mixed in with appropriately (in my opinion) worded comments.

I never understand why some have to fix what is not broken. Topix was not broken, please bring it back. I rarely read your paper now and I assume I am not the only one. Can you atleast explain why Topix is gone?

But Donna, Topix has the same mechanism (as far as I can tell anyway) as Disqus – which is, a report feature (on Disqus it’s called a flag).nnThose comments did not stay once reported.nnDisqus potentially has the same problem.

It’s clear that Disqus is not appropriate. If it takes them this long to correct code errors then they are, by definition a poor choice. Why not stay with Topix.nIf there are worries about inappropriate content one can always stop reading and move on.

The explanation that makes the most sense is that the Sentinel has the power to directly moderate Disqus, whereas the posts on Topix had to actually violate the Topix Terms of Service.nnSexist, racist, hateful speech disappeared after being flagged on Topix (at least the ones I kept track of). Pre-moderation doesn’t happen on Disqus, and flagging has the same function.nnWhere these two systems differ is that the Sentinel moderators can remove posts because someone with pull gets their feelings hurt. nnI don’t expect to see many posts criticizing certain bigwigs.

Yo Tom?? I sure hoping you guys can come up with something here..lots of the old timers, or should I say regulars? dont want to offend anyone,,are biting at the bit to get back to commenting on stories..its certainly a way for us to vent and give opinions and thoughts and lets other posters know how others think. Do the best ya can…but as for Facebook…Johnny’s not going there…Johnny at the Harbor, Jonesin for Topix

Carl…you just proved my point…you had to write you disagreed, not click and hide…just sayin

am i still banned? i never vioklated tos and i got banned.

they banned me for wanting topix back and for badrapping soquel creek water district. this “moderation” is blatant yellow journalism. i have my mornings back because I HAVE BEEN BANNED! WATCH WHAT AND HOW YOU SAY THINGS BECAUSE TOM MORRE IS FAST ON THE BAN FOR LIFE BUTTONnsigned H20stealer.

funny i get the most liked poster (see toms blog) but i can’t post because i have Been banned and I DID NOT VIOLATE THE TERMS OF SERVICE! kinda unfair i think just cuz my comments were to the point.n

Please, just bring back Topix and use a moderator for those who go to far. I don’t think you should get stuck on registration. Yeah, I know people were getting overly nasty at times, but all in all, it was a lot more fun to read and to make comments. I rarely bother even checking the new comment program lately and I don’t visit The Sentinel online nearly as much since you dropped Topix.

Hey guys!! How bout if the Sentinel lets good old Johnny be the moderator of the comments section?? No cussing, race baiting, BJ slamming and all references to Pacific Avenue are required to use the word “Bum” at least twice. All posters will be required to put a breathalyzer on their computers and must not be deemed legally stinko when making comments….all previously banned posters will be able to return to the forum and put on 15 years probation..One, just one mistake, let me tell you!! and you’re are history….period..all in fun my friends…can I get a few votes for Johnny? Johnny at the Harbor, glad to be back

I support registration requirements, which are the norm at most websites. But I’d like to see a discussion of what readers and those running the Sentinel want in discussion software and practices. One serious thing lacking in Disqus is a community portal that shows the topics being discussed and activity on those topics. Disqus tracks its user’s comments all across the web but as far as I know doesn’t have a website-specific page showing all the post emanating from that website where people can go to see what is capturing the attention of that particular website community. Without that it’s difficult to have an extended discussion of a subject.

I was using Disqus without any problems, though I did have a post deleted. That post was more a comment on the Sentinel writer than on the subject of the article, so the censoring bothered me. But what bothers me even more is what I see if I go back to a thread after it’s been up for a day or more. The comments are not just heavily edited, but rearranged according to (I assume) Moore’s Law of Relevance and Gravity. That’s changing the content, Mr.Moore!nnI do like the editing feature. Sloppy typist me.

It doesn’t let me select “like” so I’ll do it the hard way.nEvidently Topix wasn’t so easy to bully and saw through the selective censorship.

And why are you so concerned about exactly who is doing the judging? Does it really matter? Many of the user names are anonymous.

Again unable to select “like”.

Like I said, probably burned that bridge.

Like

All this talk of registration being so important…I think the Sentinel should be honest about why that matters to them. It’s possible (and common) to set up a Facebook account with fake information and a real e-mail address (even if you’ve provided fake information for the e-mail account). It’s possible to have multiple online identities linked to multiple e-mail addresses accessed by multiple devices. I think what the Sentinel really wants is a record of your IP address that could be more easily accessed by court order if needed. Think about the the anarchist vandalism downtown, the firebombing of a UCSC researcher, the ongoing gang violence and the drug trade…and how much of that is discussed online.

what happened to freedom of speech?now the newspapers are taking our rights away?what a joke

facebook sucks i refuse to use facebook

Open question: The comments have been reordered since I last visited. Is that a flaw of Disqus, or the action of the (live) editor?

I thought this comment was originally tagged as being written by Donna Maurillo? Now it’s showing as being written by “Just Me Again”. What’s with that? Can a person change their screen name with Disqus in order to post under a different alias? Even though “Just Me Again” has the name Donna Martino as the person on it’s profile, I could have sworn it originally said Donna Maurillo. Especially since the comment mentions being a contributor to The Sentinel (as does Maurillo), and there is no Donna Martino showing up in a Sentinel search.

Check to see what “Sort by” setting you have under your comment box. If it’s set either “Newest first” or “Oldest first”, order should stay the same if there’s no glitch in the system. But if you have it set on “Best rating” or “Popular now”, order would likely be subject to change.

Even nom de plume registrations can have the effect of discouraging some of the worst behaviors. The ad hoc identities of Topix invite abuses of all sorts. Managing multiple identities with is a hassle that most people wouldn’t undertake as opposed to using a consistent identity stemming from their registration. As far a identities and court orders, ip addresses are logged under any system and so court orders, which are extremely rare, are possible in any case, unless a proxy service is used to conceal your ip.

Guess we have to comment here…nnI am sure that if Sarah Palin had the choice, she would put the In ‘N Out Burger near Watsonville rather than near Santa Cruz. Those of you who adore Sarah Palin should insist on Watsonville. Palin. Palin. Palin.n

Disqus is apparently affiliated with some big-name company.n

gee, I dont know perhaps read the article first.

Instead of all the jive & nonsense with Disqus, nwhy not return to Topix that actually worked just fine?

The Sentinel is leaning towards a more “sanitized”, “wholesome”, & “inclusive” environment that entails more restrictions & bunk service for the regular user.

Disqus & The Sentinel = nnmore restrictions, regulation, & more invasive actions for “the little people”.

Dear Tom, nnWith all due respect, you should of had *all* that stuff figured out long before foisting Disqus onto the public at large. nnYou don’t sell a car to the public that has a radiator bursting every 3 miles down the road now do we??? I thought not. nnIf you’re not returning to Topix for whatever reason/s, you need to find a system that works properly. nnDisqus has greatly diminished the value of The Sentinel as a place for locals to gather, banter, fight, discuss, learn, hurl insults & generally do all the things that healthy, normal communities are entitled to do. Namely interact. nnTopix never ruined or otherwise destroyed anyone’s life regardless of what dimwits such as Ryan Coonerty & other hobgoblins may have implicated. nnThe general reception of Disqus is akin to a tennis match with mostly no shows because the weather is really bad.

Facebook is for suckers. nnI refuse to use it.

Amen. nnOur local incompetent clowns posing as “professional” living on our tax dollars.

Don’t shoot the messenger. nnAll this time you thought you lived in a democracy?nn

Go Back to Topix.nI will be the moderator since I am fair and unbiased.

ok

One man’s “mean” or “racist” comments is another man’s truth.nnPeople who have a hard time accepting truly diverse ideas have no business reading places where they occur. nnThey will be happier in protected thought preserves where no disturbing ideas are allowed. Public schools and colleges come to mind.

In one breath you say you don’t like “wildly inappropriate comments”, and in the next you say you’re “generally against censorship”.nnSince when is calling someone elses opinion “inappropriate” and not censorship?nnYou can’t have it both ways. Make up your mind.n

Agreed Carl. In Topix you could see the missing comment numbers and the mismatch between the last comment number and the supposed total.nnDivide the number total number listed by the number of the highest one and you will get a decimal or percentage.nnI call that the “memory hole quotient”. Orwell would have loved it.

And all this time I thought the Mayor had clothes on. Silly me.

Now Xan is talkin’ truth to power. THAT is why we no longer have Topix. They couldn’t control that. I don’t believe a mealy-mouthed word of the so-called “reasons” for not returning to Topix. There’s only one reason, and Xan said it.

Not to mention the increasing number of fluffo-the-clown stories. We already had enough with Celebrity Pix, and now more local stories are at the same intellectual level. nnWill the Sentinel continue until it becomes like this news outlet? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U4Ha9HQvMo

Agreed Tweedledee. nnIt’s one thing to want an IP address for investigation of violent criminality. It’s another thing entirely to track IP addresses for “thought criminals”. And don’t believe for a moment that there aren’t a lot of people in this town who would like to criminalize non-consensus thinking, the kind where they define what the consensus is and tell you to shut up if you don’t agree with them.nnMost of the time this official consensus revolves around the taboo areas of having a different opinion about race, ethnicity or “diversity”. The way these taboos are maintained is by defining having a dissident opinion as “hate speech”, and then making the TOS rules disallow opinion which has been preemptively defined as “hate”, “racism” or other Orwellian terms. In fact, this post could qualify as “hate” just for identifying this hypocrisy.nnThis kind of Terms of Service is itself an Orwellian propaganda device.

I was going to joke about a similarly named burrito chain, but thought better of it. It might be taken down as “hate”.

Funny how some articles seem to sort of disappear while others appear to move around.

Like!

Facebook has a facial recognition app. You can put a photo of someone’s face into it and it will find their page. Not because it has the same photo, mind you; because the software recognizes their face. Apple now incorporates a facial recognition feature in its iPhoto software, which will group all photos by face. China is doing it to track dissidents in real time with cameras placed in their cities: software monitors dissidents’ faces and maps out their locations. If too many of them congreate in the same place, they send the cops. These apps will soon be available for use by consumers for scanning the entire web. This means that anyone will be able to snap a shot of your face with their cell phone while you walk by, upload it to thier software, and pull up every website with a photo of your face on it. Thought that you made your dating website profile private by using a pseudonym? Wrong. Your boss, customer, neighbor, anybody will find it. So you go in for a job interview, and the camera in the waiting room snaps your image, and before you’ve even met the interview panel they’ve read your dating website profile and anything with your face on it. And Google caches every website. It’s all archived. Forever.

Allowing people to say things and agreeing with what they say are two different things. Democracy is democracy in part because we can say pretty much whatever we like and we don’t have to agree with each other. Censorship is a slippery slope. You probably think you have some fair and balanced criteria for what should be censored, but it turns out that my fair and balanced criteria includes censoring you. Plus, you can censor all the words you like, but you can’t stop thoughts. Better to have what people actually think out in the open, above board, so it can be critiqued, discussed, responded and reacted to, rather than driving policies, politics, and behaviors covertly. It’s not like censoring something you disagree with is going to stop it from existing.

As long as they’re our wildly inappropriate comments we’re against censorship. When they’re yours we’re for it.

hey tom moore let me post again, i promise to be nice and sweet to the sentinel-H20Stealer

How could this possibly take so long? This is interfering with my AM routeen!!nI havent even bothered to finish one article because I know I’ll miss my morning humor, intellectual, informed and uninformed, racist and non racist opinions.nIt also helps me start the day….get on with it already.

I don’t believe the user of a particular ip address can be known by the newspaper. If some violation of the law is alleged, a court could force the internet provider to disclose whose account had that ip address at the time the criminal act occurred. But that has nothing to do with so-called hate speech and the newspaper’s policies and practices around that. As far as that, I would like to see the newspaper’s determinations of what posts deserved to be censored subject to some outside oversight by making the censored posts available for viewing to a citizens panel representing a cross section of the political spectrum. That way readers could have a more trust that the judgments being made by the paper weren’t arbitrary or political.

Poll…..nnWhat will happen first:nnSentinal commenting forum fixednnIn and Out Burger in Santa Cruz

Yet another day of posting here due to continuing Disqus failure…nnRe front page story on weatherization program: Quote from article “free weatherization from Central Coast Services”. Free to whom? Central Coast Services is funded through the Community Action Board (CAB), an agency created by LBJ’s War on Poverty program over 40 years ago. So far, the only poverty it has eliminated is that of those provided employment in CAB-supported non-profits. And the services they provide are anything but free to those of us who provide the taxes to fund them.nn”Strange end to rail saga” editorial: It shouldn’t be considered remarkable that government would act realistically regarding costs. Sadly, it is…outside of the private sector which is forced to consider such things as profit and lost, lacking indentured customers the way government has its indentured taxpayers. Property values have plunged steeply across the nation the past few years, so adjustment of the price for this ill-advised purchase should have occurred long ago.

I have been censored, on this thread. But I have worse things to worry about. I agree with you, its a slippery slope. We have free speech zones in public areas and collages, where you are supposed to have the right to say anything in a 10 by 10 spot. Since this is an open forum where teens or even younger hopefully might read a paper… Not likely but I can hope. The expectation of free speech where you can say anything including inciting violence is just not right for this forum. This is not a public area but a corporate run newspaper. They have a right to do whatever they want, including censoring. The problem is so many people complained and the paper felt they had to do something. Even the Mayor called the Sentinel Forum the most racist this side of the Mississippi. So, what is the paper supposed to do when they get daily complaints of the foul comments? Most of these comments come from 20 people who sit and wait for the next article. A hide feature is done on some forums where users can choose to reveal censored comments. I would like to see that as I do not like censorship. But i also do not like seeing a forum hijacked by a few with far too much time on their hand. n

nHey, the Sentinel encourages us to use our real names, even though that puts citizens who object to open-borders at an unknown level of risk, given the violent criminal gangs we now have with open borders.nnSo how about if Sentinel censors start using their real names? How about if the Sentinel tell us some details about its censors, and how they’re screened for objectivity?nnTopix routinely censored many of my (and others’) comments for the sin of not being PC.nnI was actually banned from Topix, and most of my prior comments were removed.nnI oppose open borders, but I ALWAYS use my first & last real names, and never hijack anyone else’s name. Meanwhile, an open-borders troll registered my real name with Topix for the sole purpose of preventing me from registering my own name. The troll never even used my hijacked name. Topix refused to do anything about it.nnI never used slurs of any kind, yet pro-open-borders commenters routinely used slurs of all kinds, as well as incredibly degenerate semi-literate slander, which Topix often ignored.nnSo if we go back to Topix it would be great if the Sentinel would not resume the hypocritical censorship.

Xanthippe,nnYou may recall I was banned from Topix (with most of my comments removed), even though you said I am civil enough and you welcomed my comments (as I do yours).nnOur Censorship Gods should reveal their own identities, and the Sentinel ought to come clean with us about what goes on behind the curtain.

You were banned for race baiting– or maybe I should say ethnicity baiting — and hate speech.

Yes, it was formerly under the name Donna Maurillo.

Tom….how about checking up on this little item, please re: Carl and Tyler?nntnDouglas Deitch [Moderator] 1 hour agonon http://www.santacruzsentinel.c... 2 days agonnhttp://www.santacruzsentinel.c…nnI wasn’t able to make the meeting last night by Mr. Farr. It is a pity that Mr. Farr didn’t and doesn’t show similar compassion, concern, RESPECT, and shock and convene and hold a similar “Town Hall” memorial meeting in connection with the violent and senseless murders of our two young teenagers last year by undocumented Latino gangsters here in our Community, Carl Reimers and Tyler Tenorio.nnDo you think Mr. Farr or any elected official in Santa Cruz has YET over a year later even directly contacted and spoken with and attempted to comfort or otherwise come to the aid of either the parents of either Carl or Tyler? I wonder…nn(PLEASE, I HOPE SOMEONE CAN PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG HERE!!!…I APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE TO ANY SANTA CRUZ CITY COUNCIL MEMBER OR OTHER LOCAL ELECTED OFFICIAL, PAST OR PRESENT, WHO HAS REACHED OUT AND ATTEMPTED TO MEET AND COMFORT EITHER THE REIMERS OR TENORIO FAMILY OVER THE LAST YEAR…PLEASE, ADD YOUR NAME BELOW BY COMMENT , I would appreciate it…)nnI guess I can perhaps understand Mr. Farr’s ignoring the Reimer/Tenorio murders in that the illegal and murderous “Sanctuary City” law and policy which Mr. Farr so consistently and unflinchingly supports in so many different ways here (like, for example, former staff members like Zach Friend (and many, many others!) in key visible and highly paid community positions like police “spokesman/crime analyst” to distract us as to the real causes and solutions to our gangster crime wave here that was so integrally involved with and ultimately probably primarily responsible for these murders and the future violence and mayhem against our innocent youth here in our Community inevitably yet to come?nnPlease remember Tyler and Carl, Mr. Farr…and show some real respect and compassion here in and for our Community and the parents, relatives, friends, and neighbors of these two young teenagers so violently and senselessly taken from us.nnIn my view, regretfully Mr. Farr you have chosen to prioritize to our extreme detriment, knowingly or not, the interests and mega illegal hiring practices of mega tenant transnational ag businesses like Driscolls, Dole, CalGiant, Trical, etc, et al and the required multitude of the necessary tens of thousands of impoverished undocumented primarily Latino migrant field workers and their families necessarily here (and the Latino/Mexican Organized Crime detritus that necessarily accompanies and feeds off them and the communities they inhabit..like Santa Cruz…) over the rest of us and our neighbors and families rightfully and legitimately here first.nnPlease lead by example and follow the letter and intent of our state and federal laws, many of which you have created. You have promised and sworn to us all that you will.n

But people do just that, Donna (think Westboro Baptist Church), and it is legal as long as they stay on public property. It’s not nice, but it’s speech, and it’s legal. That’s all a red herring, though, because when you participate in a forum you agree to the TOS, and the TOS of Topix prohibited hate speech.

Does that mean you HAVE the e-mail address, Tom? Or that you can communicate through the registration services we used?

You are pretty new around here, right Tom?nnSo here’s some more history for you on Mr. Farr. and “our water” and “agribusiness” here and how Mr. Farr has stewarded our community and region and it’s resources for us here….repostednntnDouglas Deitch [Moderator] 1 hour agonIn response to “booyah4u”‘s comment below….”8 hours ago in reply to my comment below…n”And I’m sure he is now stricken with grief over knowing how he has lost your important personal support. *eye roll*”nnActually, “booyah4u”….since you bring it up, Mr. Farr in true fact lost my “important personal support. *eye roll*” around 10 years ago, and I can very clearly remember the precise circumstances and moment…nnIt was at my only actual “meeting” with Mr. Farr in the year 2000 in the men’s room during a break at the “Regional Water Summit Meeting” Mr. Farr had helped convene and was moderating at the Hyatt in Monterey…Many people were there, a full house.nn(I had been in contact with Mr. Farr’s Assembly and Congressional offices previously since 1992 and 1998 in connection with ag water overuse and wetlands/slough conservation issues here…eg.nnhttp://dougforsupervisor.com/dougsoldwebsite/new_page_10.htmnnhttp://dougforsupervisor.com/dougsoldwebsite/sam_farr_letter_1998.htmnnthough he had never met with me, despite repeated attempts on my part…I regularly encounter this from local elected officials…)nnAt the 2000 “Water Summit”, there were a number of panels and one right before the break was dealing with agricultural water use without, of course, any mention of the words “salt water intrusion”.nnDuring the question and answer period at the conclusion of this panel, I stood and asked the question below (with some intended timidity and feigned naivete, as the room was mostly filled with major agricultural interests and the water agencies and other bureaucracies and nonprofits, etc. that support the status quo which has fed so voraciously and ruinously on our water calamity here),nnMy question…n”Due to our unconscionable chronic ag groundwater overuse here regionally, do you think it possible that we might have exceeded our sustainable agricultural carrying capacity here in the Monterey Bay?” The panel, of course, answered emphatically, “No!” and we all took a break…nn…As Mr. Farr and I stood in the men’s room during the break, much to my surprise Mr. Farr turned to me, having never even been introduced to one another, and with all sincerity asked me, “Do you REALLY think we could have possibly exceeded our agricultural carrying capacity here?” I answered, “What do you think? That’s what’s important.” (I never heard from Mr. Farr again, except for form letters congratulating me for being a losing supervisor candidate…)nnAfter the permanent decimation of both our major ground water basins from uncontrolled massive ag overdrafting in both the Salinas and Pajaro Valleys and billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of acre feet of our precious water supply gone forever in exported berries in the ten plus years since the 2000 Water Summit, I guess we all must now know Mr. Farr’s answer.nnApparently, Mr. Farr had chosen to and still does prioritize, knowingly or not, the interests and mega illegal hiring practices of mega tenant transnational ag businesses like Driscolls, Dole, CalGiant, Trical, etc, et al and the required multitude of the necessary tens of thousands of impoverished undocumented primarily Latino migrant field workers and their families necessarily here over the rest of us and our neighbors and families rightfully and legitimately here first to our extreme detriment.nnand that’s exactly what happened to my once important personal support for Mr. Farr…nnwww.douglasdeitch.comnwww.dougdeitch.comn(www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK-UlI…)nnn

I’m puzzled. I posted a question about the way the posts get rearranged after they’e been up for a bit, and it’s gone. Someone here replied that it was probably due to my sorting preference, but i use a MAc and there is no sorting preference option that comes up in my profile. The post seem to shuffle in no particular order — not by “likes,” not my time, not by relevance. What gives?

Desal Scoping Comments?…No Problem!nnn——– Original Message ——–nSubject: tRequest For Reconsideration of URS Hiring, Environmental Review Process, and Desal Scoping CommentsnDate: tMon, 10 Jan 2011 10:16:39 -0800nFrom: tDouglas Deitch nTo: tnnnFROM:nDouglas Deitchn501 Mission StreetnSanta Cruz, California, 95060n831-476-7662nnnRequest For Reconsideration of URS Hiring, Environmental Review and Desal Scoping Comments from Douglas Deitchn501 Mission Street, Santa Cruz, Ca.n831-476-7662nnDear Mayor and Santa Cruz City Council, et al,nnI am making comments below, intending them to serve for two purposes. The first purpose is as the basis of a formal Request For Reconsideration that, as is substantiated by my comments below, I am by this email making to the Mayor and Santa Cruz City Council.nI request that the City Council reconsider it’s decision to move forward with the environmental review process of the proposed desalination facility with URS Corporation serving as the environmental consultant or at all at this time. These comments are also intended to serve as my scoping comments.nnREQUEST/COMMENT #1. Request For Reconsideration: the hiring of URS as Environmental Consultant- Conflict of Interestnn As a preliminary matter, I must first object to URS Corporation’s appointment and hiring to conduct the environmental review process of the desal project in the first instance and request that it be reconsidered. I contend that this hiring is entirely imprudent and consummately inappropriate on it’s face. URS’s appointment minimally presents at least the very substantial appearance of a very substantial conflict of interest.n URS Corporation is not a proper and impartial environmental consultant to be performing either scoping process or Desal EIR. Their connections with UC should immediately eliminate them from consideration for this function. It boggles the mind. It appears that this consultant was not properly vetted by the City of Santa Cruz and Soquel Creek Water District. I have not yet encountered anyone in this hiring process on water or other staffs, on the council or in SqCWD that took this connection into account or was even aware of it.n Given this reality, the choice and appointment of the environmental consultant should be reconsidered de novo by both SqWCD, SCMU, with proper oversight, due diligence, candidate vetting, disclosure, and approval of both the newly elected City Council and the Board at SqCWD. This is going to be a very substantial investment to build and then operate this $100 million plant, if we do. We need to get this right from the start to the finish. This is not a good start.n The extant and past business and other professional connections between the University of California, Regent Richard Blum, and URS Corporation, which from my preliminary investigations and conversations with city staff and SqCWD apparently were either unknown or known and not disclosed to necessary decision making parties in Santa Cruz and Soquel Creek Water District and are very substantial….to wit, from a prior letter of mine…nn”Ann Sansevero, a consultant with URS Corporation who will be preparing the environmental impact report, urged residents who have concerns about the project to attend one of two meetings scheduled for Dec. 8…”nnQuery 1: Who is URS Corporation and is URS the best appropriate neutral and unbiased consultant to be preparing the EIR?nnQuery: Might one reasonably assume that UC/UCSC is in favor of the desal plant’s approval and construction?nnQuery 3: Was URS Corporation properly vetted by the Santa Cruz/SqCWD “team”? For example, was the “team” and city council aware of the substantial and long term connections between URS, UC, and Regent Blum prior to URS’s selection? (eg… re; UC and URS…they are already substantially in business together…eg…they both run Lawrence Livermore Labs, see below)…nnfyi…Regarding URS Corporation, UC, and Regent Richard Blum…nnhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R…nn”Richard C. Blum (c. 1936[1]) is an investment banker and the husband of United States Senator from California Dianne Feinstein. He is the Chairman and President of Blum Capital, an equity investment management firm that acts as general partner for various investment partnerships and provides investment advisory services. He is also a Regent of the University of California where until May 2009, he served as the chairman of that board….”nCareernBlum joined investment brokerage Sutro & Co. at the age of 23, becoming a partner before age 30. On the back of this deal Blum started in business for himself in 1975, founding what is now Blum Capital Partners;a stake in URS Corp. was one of its first investments…”nnhttp://investors.urscorp.com/p…=nn”Richard Blum Leaves URS Board; Company Acknowledges Mr. Blum’s 30-year ContributionnnSAN FRANCISCO, CA – November 4, 2005 – URS Corporation (NYSE: URS) today announced that Richard C. Blum, a director since 1975, has resigned from the URS Board of Directors after 30 years of distinguished service. Mr. Blum is Chairman and Founder of Blum Capital Partners, L.P…”nnSan Francisco Business Times – by Steven E.F. BrownnDate: Monday, June 28, 2010, 9:48am PDT – Last Modified: Monday, June 28, 2010, 3:02pm PDTnnhttp://www.bizjournals.com/san…nRelated:nnSan Francisco engineering giant URS Corp. wants to buy Scott Wilson Group plc, an engineering consulting firm based in the United Kingdom, for $242 million in cash….nURS Corp. has about 42,000 workers. Locally, it is a member of the group that manages Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Other local members include San Franciscou2019s Bechtel Corp. and the University of California.”nn************************************nREQUEST/COMMENT #2 Public Misrepresentations by SCMU and SqCWD Regarding Desal Plant and Salt Water Intrusion Problem and Public Outreach/Information Dissemination Processnn The City of Santa Cruz and SqCWD, through outreach, editorials, and public letters to newspapers and meetings by both SqCWD GM Laura Brown and SCMU’s Bill Kocher, etc., have been, despite continued notice to them by me, continuously, intentionally, and purposely, misrepresenting the desal plant as a cure to the massive, catastrophic, irremediable, and now chronic for decades salt water intrusion problem. The resource loss is 15k/a/f/yr caused by 90% ag use at a 200% yearly overdraft and has created permanent contamination which is now present, massive, and yearly increasing in the Aromas Red Sands Formation (which underlies both SqCWD and PVWMA…and is shared by both).nnAs my video comment before the California Coastal Commission this last March/2010 reflects,….nnwww.OurInconvenientTruth.netnnand as the front page 1998 Sentinel headline article at the link below indicates, the problem in Soquel Creek Water District in their southerly aquifer shared with PVWMA is dire.nn(please produce and include pdf at this link http://www.douglasdeitch.comnnThe hydrologic condition in SqCWD’s aquifers should be accurately represented to the customers and decision makers of the City of Santa Cruz and SqCWD so a proper analysis and community decision can be made on whether or not Soquel Creek Water District is a good, reliable, truthful, and viable partner to be partnering with the City of Santa Cruz on a shared desal plant and whether this decision is a prudent one. They will not be able to perform as they are claiming long term in respect to either their well pumping and their need for desal water.n nI have made numerous requests to both SCMU and SqCWD over the years to be included on public panels, meetings, outreach, etc., to present another and more realistic and balanced perspective on our problems and possible solutions…but, unfortunately, I have been systematically excluded from the public dialogue by SCMU, SqCWD, PVWMA, and the Sentinel , etc…An accurate water picture is and has not been portrayed.nnIn contrast to her recent statements, Ms. Brown, 15+ GM of SqCWD (former assistant SC city manager who coincidentally is spouse of the 30 year+ head of the Santa Cruz County Farm Bureau) better and more accurately recounts the true source and accurate status of Soquel Creek’s water and it’s salt water problems fifteen years ago in her 1996 Aptos Times Article linked atnnhttp://pogonip.org/WaterDocs/AptosTimes_96.pdfnn(note to recipient-Please produce a hard copy of this linked pdf 1996 Aptos Times article to include Ms. Brown’s comments and analysis then to include with this letter by email so it can be reviewed and read in conjunction with this letter/email…..thank you.)nnHowever, now, to quote Brown and Kocher’s recent representations in the Santa Cruz Weekly…nnhttp://www.metrosantacruz.com/metro-santa-cruz/09.02.09/letters-0935.htmlnnColumnsnSeptember 2-9, 2009nnhome | metro santa cruz index | letters to the editornnLetters to the EditornnConservation Not EnoughnWHILE IT IS TRUE that our local water users have considerably reduced consumption without great difficulty, and we applaud their mindful conservation efforts, it is important to put this year’s drought in context. Despite a third straight year of below average rainfall, the more severe droughts of 1976-77 and 1987-1992 created a much more difficult situation for residents and businesses to cope with water restrictions. It is during periods like those of more critical shortages that a desalination option is needed.nnAnother important role of the desalination plant is to allow Soquel Creek Water District to reduce its annual pumping on the stressed coastal aquifers, which are currently its only water source. By supplementing groundwater supplies with desalination, the District will be able to limit groundwater pumping to within the sustainable yield and prevent seawater intrusion from contaminating the aquifers….nnBill Kocher, DirectornSanta Cruz Water DepartmentnnLaura Brown, General ManagernSoquel Creek Water Districtnn….this statement, above by Kocher and Brown, is a complete misrepresentation, fabrication, and completely inaccurate.nnnThe proposed desal plant can and will never “prevent seawater intrusion from contaminating the aquifers”…to wit, as I wrote in my published response to their letter and claimsnnhttp://www.metrosantacruz.com/metro-santa-cruz/09.09.09/letters-0936.htmlnnColumnsnSeptember 9-16, 2009nnhome | metro santa cruz index | letters to the editornnLetters to the EditornnShock And AwenI READ with great amazement, shock and awe the statement by Ms. Laura Brown, general manager of Soquel Creek Water District, and Mr. Bill Kocher, Santa Cruz water czar (“Conservation Not Enough,” Letters, Sept. 2): “By supplementing groundwater supplies with desalination, the District will be able to limit groundwater pumping to within the sustainable yield and prevent seawater intrusion from contaminating the aquifers [plural].” This is disingenuous at the very best.nnApparently, Ms. Brown and Mr. Kocher should reread Ms. Brown’s 1996 Aptos Times article (which can be found online at http://pogonip.org/WaterDocs/AptosTimes_96.pdf), wherein Ms. Brown describes how one-third of Soquel Creek’s water supply comes from wells in the same aquifer, the Aromas Red Sands, that Pajaro and the Farm Bureau uses around 90 percent of at around 200 percent overdraft to grow around 25 percent of this country’s berries annually … thereby permanently losing 15,000 acre feet of their shared supply to salt water intrusion each year for decades, exported in berries! And earning UC a cool $5 million a year in berry IP royalty payments, UC’s fifth-biggest yearly revenue generator.nnWe would have to build around seven new 24/7 $100 million Santa Cruz desal plants yearly (before operations and maintenance) just to keep even, global warming or not. The late Marc Reisner, author of Cadillac Desert, said 12 years ago here that our situation in Soquel Creek and Pajaro was the worst in the world. By what type of 1984 doublethink can this be considered preventing “seawater intrusion from contaminating the aquifers”? With this Water Weltanschauung, Soquel Creek and Santa Cruz ratepayers better consider the distinct possibility of their being up “the” creek without a paddle or any water either. How tough that be, and where will Ms. Brown and Mr. Kocher be then retired to?nnOne statement in the letter is undeniably true, though: “Our local water supplies are not sustainable for the current population”–but only of berry plants, not humans, I’m afraid. For example, after its expansion, UCSC will use annually, in total, less water than does 200 acres of berries: 600 acre feet a year. That’s why I call this a Water Berry Ponzi Scheme.nnDouglas Deitch,nExecutive Director, Monterey Bay ConservancynnTo correct this, this public from outreach and meetings, information dissemination, EIR Consultant hiring, etc process should be begun again, de novo….with accurate information and due diligence and vetting by all involved.nnREQUEST/COMMENT #3 ARE WE ENVIRONMENTALLY REVIEWING RIGHT DESAL PLANT?nn Is the City of Santa Cruz conducting environmental review on the right desal plant? According to Dr. Bruce Haddad at UCSC, the Santa Cruz plant will be a plant of first impression in terms of size and otherwise. Consequently, the neither the City of Santa Cruz, anybody in SqCWD, nor any of it’s many and high paid consultants are experts and experienced in the construction and operation of desal plants like this one or otherwise. The consultants want the work and jobs, of course, but are not going to be paying the bills. We are taking the risk.nn Recent articles in the Sentinel regarding a new desal proposal by Calera indicate a promising and far less expensive desal alternative. Here’s the link to the article. Professor Griggs at UCSC is one of it’s supporters. However, this plant uses a different technology not being studied and reviewed now.nnhttp://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_16781800?IADID=Search-www.santacruzsentinel.com-www.santacruzsentinel.comnnAlso, other recent articles in connection with the Monterey Desal Proposal indicate our proposed costs may be substantially underestimated.nnQuoting “Drinking water from a proposed regional desalination plant north of Marina could cost California American Water customers significantly more than what the project’s proponents have suggested, according to the state Division of Ratepayer Advocates.nnA preliminary project analysis completed by the ratepayer advocates estimates the cost of desalinated water to Cal Am customers could be about $7,000 to $7,900 per acre-foot. Project proponents have estimated the cost at about $4,000 per acre-foot.”nnhttp://www.montereyherald.com/search/ci_14862974?IADID=Search-www.montereyherald.com-www.montereyherald.com&nclick_check=1nnThe desal process has been conducted for years by a Council which represents the same political, environmental, and social outlook and vision for over the last 30 years plus to come to where we are now.nnI and I believe the people of the City of Santa Cruz would very much appreciate a second and confirmatory opinion and review of these past decisions made by the prior councils….and maybe even a discussion on whether or not there should be a vote on whether or not or even how and when exactly to more forward.nnThe magnitude of this investment, both financially and environmentally, and the consequence of making the right decision on this most important of our necessities, requires no less.nnRespectfully submitted,nDouglas Deitchn501 Mission StreetnSanta Cruz, California, 95060n831-476-7662nn nnnnn

liberal censorship.

Actually, when articles are moved from the “front page” to the “list”, it’s the comment threads that get detached. The result is the first group of comments end up in the Memory Hole.nnHow convenient!

“Topix never ruined or otherwise destroyed anyone’s life regardless of what dimwits such as Ryan Coonerty & other hobgoblins may have implicated.”nnColonel, from the perspective of said “dimwits” free commenting on Topix HAS ruined the ability of the “hobgoblins” to control discourse. By losing a grip on discourse, their closed system wherein they claim to “Own the Truth” has been destabilized. In a certain sense this turn of events HAS “destroyed their life” because it lets the world know that their definition of social reality is only one among many, and has no claim to be “the Truth”.nnPeople whose whole existence rests on their belief that they “Own the Truth” are very disturbed when that belief is shaken.

Tweedle, could you define “race baiting”, “ethnicity baiting” and “hate speech”.nnFrom my perspective these “things” are lexical distortions. They don’t mean anything if one is serious about intellectual honesty.nnThese “things” are actually the leverage points used to justify censorship. But what ARE they, and what legitimacy to they have?nnOnce a persons mind is “inside” the meme-world of these “things”, that mind is in the control of propaganda.nnIs it even possible for such minds to “think outside the box” they have been placed in?

Well, I see you comments here.nnDoes that mean you’re no longer banned? Or not?

Everything that has made the Sentinel discussions a fascinating, no holds barred (within the parameters of the published rules) forum – the good, the bad, and the ugly – is now apparently going to be sanitized in the name of P.C. and convenience.nnI fear that instead we will be forced to enter some kind of namby-pamby pretend environment where everything will be hearts and flowers with no hurt feelings or wounded dignity allowed. Ahh . . . what then is the point?nnFacebook – yuck! But it would be free to MediaNews and would not require any degree of employee monitoring.nnWhy was Topix dropped? It had to be due to cost, I don’t buy the “new and improved” baloney as the reason.nnI intuit that there a lot of on-line readers (and advertisers) that are attracted to the online version just to participate in the rough-and-tumble environment, controversy, humor, and very human variety of emotions and opinions. Some misplaced, some ridiculous, some spot on. But all interesting.nnWithout it I really don’t have a reason to read the otherwise bland and oh-hum Sentinel. There are many other sources of local information – but I am much more interested in reading the collective reactions to that information.nnWithout a healthy discussion forum I won’t read this electronic rag.nnGood grief.nn

It’s the abysmal cowardice of timid hypocrites like you who tolerate blatant anti-white racism while cringing at factual if embarrassing comments about those you would never dare criticize yourself, no matter what.nnYour like-minded cowards who censor Disqus already censored a comment I made in this forum this morning, which violated nothing except your insufferable PC double standards.nnTom Moore told me last week he doesn’t “appreciate some” of [my] comments” and when I asked him to cite anything I said that isn’t true, he merely muttered and changed the subject.nnWhat’s wrong with the truth, spoken bluntly? Even if it isn’t PC?

First, there’s NO WAY these censorship judgements aren’t “political”. To understand this one must dig deeply into just what “political” means, and I doubt that many do that.nnBut you are onto a possible solution:nnHow about finding a commenting system which will allow EVERY post to “exist” in the stream, but will also “hide” the content if it’s censored and announce that it’s viewable by clicking a button. Then the reader has the CHOICE to read or not read what was deemed “objectionable”.nnIn addition, the hidden “objectionable” content should include the identity of the Sentinel censor who changed its status, and his/her reason for doing so. If a censor got a call from a certain powerful local, he/she could just note that “the Mayor placed a call”. (wink)nnThis is a solution that would allow readers CHOICE and would also increase transparency so the censors could be identified, as well as the “moral structure” that underlies their claim to ideological supremacy.nnOf course, this will never happen. Why? The power to mind-bend via censorship is something that doesn’t like exposure to daylight.

Dang it Pat! You really know how to tell it like it is. Please look at my response to “jskdn” above, wherein I request the same thing: the identity of the censors, and a reason for their censorship.nnA system which “hides” comments the censors don’t like already exists. I’ve seen it. But I don’t think a system yet exists which identifies the censors and gives a reason.nnYou are so right about the possible physical danger to those who express ideas power does not want expressed. I’ve personally experienced this. This is why it would be very dangerous to me personally if I used my “real name”. Perhaps you are in a secure life position where using your real name cannot threaten your livelihood or status. Not all of us are so lucky.nnCogent ideas can stand on their own regardless of the identity of the writer. The ONLY reason people demand to know the writer’s identity is to punish the writer for breaking out of the consensus-trance. At one level, the intent is to get people to self-censor and not even express radical ideas. So far, this strategy has been working. Most people self-censor. They do it out of fear.

I was banned from Topix even though I never used slurs of any kind.nnI was banned because I oppose open borders, and stated irrefutable facts. My sarcasm was tame compared to a lot of the degenerate obscene slurs of all kinds used by illegal aliens and their allies in Topix, which were not censored.nnThe Sentinel ought to tell us how the censors are screened for objectivity, since obviously the potential to impose personal agendas don’t miraculously stop when someone chooses to be a censor.nnCome on Tom, tell us how it all works. You KNOW that is something your readers would find most interesting.nnYou might even tell us the real names of your censors, since that is what you encourage from those of us subject to censorship.

I’ve seen systems that do what you describe, not display such comments but allow people to see them if they choose. I’d be fine with that. Personally I think it would be better to develop a trusted group of readers, again of diverse political beliefs, to do the job of such censoring and use newspaper resources on actual journalism. Furthermore I like to see a way where comments could help direct that journalism to issues readers found important but were not addressed. Greater use of crowd sourcing offers a way to get higher productivity and better journalism with limited resources. nnOnce again I’ll say I wish newspapers would consult with their readers about what they would like. n

“What’s wrong with the truth, spoken bluntly? Even if it isn’t PC?”nnIn a closed system where power “owns the Truth”, no other Truth can be allowed expression.

Okay, so I guess we just comment over here now?nnThe article about Kakkar and the Brookdale Inn and Spa (what spa?) … It lists fish kill, building without a permit, and all sorts of things, but what about the poor guy who DIED? The one who allegedly fell down an unmarked hole in the floor? I consider an actual dead human being bigger news than piles of garbage, labor law violations, or even arson. But it wasn’t in the article.

Haven’t you learned? You aren’t supposed to point out the fact that the emperor is indeed naked. It spoils the illusion.

Thanks for a post that reflects the nitty-gritty of it all.nnThe Sentinel is in an interesting situation, all brought on by technology. It’s a “lose-lose” situation for the Sentinel if it doesn’t handle this hot potato nimbly.nnOn the one hand, technology has burst open the ability of the Sentinel (or any media) to control discourse. There’s no putting that genie back in the box. We have alternatives now, so discourse which has been “bent” via media monopoly is no longer believed.nnOn the other hand, this same technology can be used by the Sentinel to leverage itself into something new. But this will require the jettisoning of the type of thinking that goes something like “We tell you what is news, and you swallow it without question”. There’s probably a better way of saying that, but that does encapsulate the traditional mindset of “the news”.nnThe media has the option of learning a new way of approaching “knowing” in the wild, wild, inter-West; or it has the option of dying if it doesn’t reconfigure itself.nnThe “media” as we know it is a very large source of power for those who own it and those who leverage it for their purposes. This power exists only so long as the media is “believable.” In the long-gone day where there were no alternative sources of information, we had no choice but to “believe” the media. Now we do have a choice.nnIf the Sentinel decides to “roll with reality”, it will find some way to allow wide open discourse, with the possibility of “hiding” stuff it doesn’t like from the terminally innocent; and at the same time allow those with stiffer spines to “see” what was hidden, with info on “who” hid it and “why”. Anything less will be deemed unacceptable by those who are able to think and are intellectually honest.nnThe alternative, if the Sentinel doesn’t do something like this, will be a new website not controlled by the Sentinel. It may be called something like the “Meta-Sentinel”, and it will have a type of RSS feed which highlights all Sentinel stories, with links, but does not violate fair use laws. Each Sentinel news item will have a non-censored comment stream attached, no holds barred. Over time people will go to THAT site rather than the Sentinel site, use the links to read the stories and then comment. The Sentinel comments will slowly dry up on the vine and the advertisers will not be happy about this “shift”.nnIs this what you want, Sentinel?

“Furthermore I like to see a way where comments could help direct that journalism to issues readers found important but were not addressed. Greater use of crowd sourcing offers a way to get higher productivity and better journalism with limited resources.”nnVery important observation “jksdn”!nnIn today’s world, the success of the dear old Sentinel (yes I really mean that) will hinge on evolving in this direction. See my long post on this way down from here.nn”Crowd sourcing” as you call it, or at least a sort of “teasing” of the official journalists by the “crowd” (that would be “us”, wouldn’t it?) has nothing to offer but upsides; but only IF the official journalists make a mindset-change. Rather than thinking of themselves as authorities and readers as consumers of their authority, they need to think of us as potential allies in the “search for truth”. nnThis, however, will be hard on some journalistic egos. I have no solution ready for that problem.nnRegarding newspapers seeking guidance from their readers about what the readers would like to see covered: That’s a good idea. But if what the readers want is more stories along the lines of “Celebrity Pix”, which seems to be bleeding into the type of “coverage” we’re seeing in the Sentinel … God help us all.

Come on everyone. The image the Sentinel (and the city council) is trying portray is of love and happiness – where unicorns poop rainbows and everything is fine. But we know different – everything is NOT fine. Santa Cruz has gone steadily downhill within the last 10 years. On a side note, I love how Disque “broke” in time for Robert’s tirade. Poor Robert.

The person in question always brings everything back to the same anti-immigration jag, using the same trigger phrases, and he gets censored, and then complains. Same game, over and over and over. free speech, yes, but a violation of TOS.

When the Sentinel posts an article about the County Board of Education approving an operating agreement with PCS (see: http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_17155642)nand the writer, Cathy Kelly, uses the word “diversity” uncritically, readers are in the presence of the “Mind Bend”.nnThis is why open comments are necessary: propaganda must not be allowed free rein if intellectual honesty is a community value.nnI don’t know Ms Kelly, and am not attacking her personally. But in the presence of a comment stream where her reporting could be subjected to critical thinking, she might learn things not taught in Journalism School.

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…..

A quick update. Disqus says the issue with IE users is fixable and they’re testing their update. In the meantime, you can go here to comment on Sentinel stories: http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/localstories. (It’s a Facebook commenting system).nnAs for the concerns about censorship, free speech, conspiracies, etc., our terms of service haven’t changed since the Topix era. nhttp://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_15941615nnWe’re mostly asking commenters not to generalize their contempt for any group of people, no swear words, no spam, no stalking. We request is that you treat readers and other commenters with respect. nnThe bar remains fairly low. nnThanks again for the discussion, the criticism and suggestions. Also, thanks for your patience while we work it on out. – Tom

I accidentally hit your “Liked” button.nnActually I’d need to know who you mean by “bullies” to do that.nnDo you include as bullies the open-borders fanatics who slander all opposition as “racist xenophobic haters” who should be censored?

Good grief. My question and your reply were missing this morning, back this afternoon. I don’t get it. But in answer to your suggestion, the option for sorting does not present itself when I access my Disqus profile. I wonder whether this has to do with the fact that i worship in the Church of Steve Jobs and Jonatan Ive? And the comments are reordered in no pattern that I can discern.

I followed the Topix forum for the Sentinel for almost the entire time it was used. I don’t think there were that many people who abused it by using multiple names (agreeing with themselves on a thread, for instance), and those who did were easily recognizable by their writing quirks. Being able to change your name is a nice option in a forum. I changed my own Topix name a couple of times when I became the target of a cyber-stalker.

I suggest that anyone who is interested on the subject of incivility and anonymity on the Internet, as it relates to journalism, go to CNN.com and read the story “Tracking Down My Online Haters.” An excerpt: nn—That’s why, when journalists take the time to respond personally to venomous notes, proving that they are made of flesh and blood, the reaction is strikingly — and puzzlingly — positive.n”I don’t know how many times I’ve tracked down someone who’s sent a vile or nasty e-mail, tweet or Facebook post,” says Richard Sandomir, the New York Times’ sports media columnist. “It often results in their being so astonished, even honored, that you’d find them, that they act normally.”—

Tom wrote, “We’re mostly asking commenters not to generalize their contempt for any group of people”.nnAs a white European American, when I see the powers that be demanding “diversity” for a school like PCS because it has a lot of students who are diverse white European Americans, I see “contempt” for the diverse white European American peoples. Your paper reports on this matter and accepts the term “diversity” uncritically. Let’s see what’s really going on …nn————nnEveryone says PCS has a “diversity problem”.nnThey’re just saying this because a lot of white people attend PCS.nnThey don’t say a school which is overwhelmingly non-white has a “diversity problem”.nnThey don’t suggest solving the “diversity problem” of predominantly non-white schools by overwhelming them with diverse white European Americans.nnTheir solution to the “diversity problem” at PCS is to overwhelm it with non-white students.nnAre they trying to solve a “diversity problem”, or are they trying to find a final solution to the “White Problem”?nnSolving the “diversity problem” is just code-speak for solving the “White Problem”.

Looks like Tom has had enough. The link no longer appears and we are invited to login via facebook. See ya!

My cowardly anti-white racist,nnAnti-white racist slurs and slanderous insults against everyone who objects to unsustainable immigration are repeated in these forums “over and over and over.”nnHave you ever said a peep about that? If so, let’s see it.nnUntil then, you remain an insufferably cowardly anti-white racist hypocrite. As disgusting as you obviously are, I would not try to deny you your freedom of speech. I have never ever even tried to have anyone’s comment deleted, even when one of your open-borders trolls used my own name.nnUNLIKE you, I respect the 1st Amendment.

Can you direct us to evidence of this petition?nnIt’s not surprising these people would stoop to that level, but we’d appreciate seeing the metaphorical “smoking gun.”

Will Mr. Moore PLEASE explain the reordering of comments?

TOM MOORE, please expand upon that part where you say you can communicate directly with commenters. How? Do you have a record of e-mail addresses?

“The bar remains fairly low.” Couldn’t resist, eh?

I don’t think people ask for “Celebrity Pix”. Rather the business side of the paper knows that many people are attracted to such stuff. My guess is that the addition of those wasn’t a local decision. nnJournalist’s egos are a barrier to journalism.

You changed your name but did you then consistent use those identities? That’s different from an ad hoc identity for every post, allowing people to be as outrageous as they want with no credibility consequence attached to them for that behavior, and which often lead to a downward spiral into flame wars. What’s the harm you anticipate for registration, which is the norm across the web? I like consistent identities because it allows me to skip over some people’s posts after I made a judgment about their value as contributors to discussions and use my time to focus on those who might have something worthwhile to offer.

Nobody’s going to use Facebook for serious commenting. nnIt’d be nice if we lived in a truly diverse, truly tolerant community, but the fact is that Santa Cruz is neither. People are made to suffer very real consequences for failing to toe the correct ideological line. It’s a sad fact.nnTopix works. Disqus does not. If the terms of service are the same for commenting, why can’t the Sentinel find a way to make Topix work – particularly since that is what seems to be the majority opinion of those who comment?nnIncidently, Topix still exists, and there is still a Santa Cruz Forum. People can make their own threads, and still discuss matters. It can be found here:nhttp://www.topix.com/forum/city/santa-cruz-cann

Yes, Pat, I do recall. nnI don’t recall seeing Pat Kittle comments that were over my line on how I interpret the Sentinel’s terms of service, other than the fake Pat Kittle comments. I am puzzled still as to why you were banned. nn(Well, now that I think of it, maybe it had something to do with she-who-must-not-be-named. I suspect that’s it, actually. You no doubt violated TOS on some of those comments. Not that I have any sympathy for her left; that is long spent, after seeing her respond in kind too many times, as well as other actions she’s taken that have convinced me of her black heart. But she is tenacious and I’m sure she combed over your comments and complained loudly and frequently enough to have had an effect.)nnThis is not to say that I agree with everything you write – I don’t, and you and I have gotten into it before about things upon which we disagree. I’ve given you my position and tried to sway you toward my way of thinking, and you have likewise given me yours. I don’t feel a need to continue to try to convince you until I think of something that is different than what I’ve already said, and I figure you feel similarly. Agree to disagree, and so forth.nnIt’s an interesting idea for the Sentinel to make public their acts of censorship but do you really expect them to? I mean, all one needs to do really is just look at who runs the Sentinel to know who is responsible for the content; similarly, who runs the Sentinel online? That is who is responsible for the censorship. As to why a particular thing gets censored, look at the terms of service. nnThe Sentinel abhors any discussion regarding illegal immigrants. One must be extremely careful in how one broaches the topic to avoid censorship. Generalizing criminal gang behavior to one ethnicity is another no-no. I’d welcome it if people were more thoughtful in how to discuss these issues without invoking the wrath of the censors – it’s tricky but possible, surely. nnPerhaps Tom Moore could even join in that discussion. I am (and others are also, I’m sure) left with the impression that certain topics are offlimits – which is a rather sad commentary on our community, isn’t it? Particularly since illegal immigration and criminal gangs are two very important issues.

This seems worthy of explanation.nnWhat’s up with this, Tom?

Well said. As far as the open border lefties joining the forum, they have, and got chewed on pretty good. They are not going to change their collective opinion that we, as a richer nation, should continue to support our third world neighbor(s) to the south regardless of what it does to our standard of living. And notice whose money they are all too happy to spend on this.nI see the same mentality at my place of employment. It is a big deal to post a news article critical of illegal immigration, or stats showing what it is costing the US, but cartoons ridiculing the “stingy” American tax payer is OK. As are anti-GOP posters. A picture of O’Bama wearing an acorn cap and smoking a cigarette lasted 5 seconds.nNo, it is all about control. They will no longer tolerate intolerance.

I have no problem with registration. I AM concerned, however, that the Sentinel moderator dropped that bomb about contacting posters who have a lot to “add” to a story, and didn’t explain how those people are to be contacted. I have posted several queries here on that subject, and I hope I get an answer. Anonymity must be protected, but in answer to your question…I used consistent names on Topix. I changed them only when i became a target.

I am the one who reported the Firefox problem. It is an annoyance that was introduced only recently. It is apparent only when you type more than five lines in a new comment, not a reply to an existing comment. A little bit sloppy on their part but I think it should be easily fixed.